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<mike_cee> testing.  0. 1. 2
<mike_cee> testing.  0. 1. 2
<mike_cee> any volunteers to log this meeting?
stub checks if he is logging
<jan_rotterdam> hi  who is in the multimedia room?
<mike_cee> hi jan, I'll run the intros for you :-)
<jan_rotterdam> great
<mike_cee> We have me (selfappinted usurper of your holy jan-ness
<mike_cee> we have bill kerr, adelaide lurker :-)  (grinning)
<mike_cee> we have phil brown, teacher and bringer of laptops
<mike_cee> we have susan whitham (who claims she never had black hair)
<mike_cee> and we have kevin littlejohn
<mike_cee> and I *swear* there is no alcohol here.
<mike_cee> *EOT*
<jan_rotterdam> maybe its the heat :)
<mike_cee> (we had more -- warren crosbie [gone home to IRC from there], gus gollings, two of my students talking about some experimental results based on zope, and richard volpato
<jan_rotterdam> terrific
<mike_cee> how's rotterdam?
<jan_rotterdam> It's about 0 degrees -  I've just got off the plane
from Washington
<Isileth> Hi Jan (susan here) - did you forget to type another digit in front of that zero? :-)
<jan_rotterdam> lol I wish
<jan_rotterdam> Infrae is a busy little office
<jan_rotterdam> i wonder where Jim f is
<jan_rotterdam> maybe we can do some sprint housekeeping mike_cee is now known as broom
<broom> okie dokie ;-)
<jan_rotterdam> Richard Jones has volunteered to organise coffee and snacks which is great
<jan_rotterdam> Stuart Bishop is going to organise all the network infrrastructure
<jan_rotterdam> Jim says that the people who attended the tutorial last time don't have to do it
<jan_rotterdam> again.  He has broken the material up more than last time so  the tutorial is 3 days of  lectures and hands on exercises
<jan_rotterdam> he said this worked very well in India in december
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<jan_rotterdam> welcome Jim
<JimFulton> hi
<JimFulton> sorry I'm late
<jan_rotterdam> that's fine
<broom> okie
<broom> I'm massively behind on PR for the sprint, this weekend will be catchup (lots of faxing and e-mailing)
<jan_rotterdam> I was just talking abou your tutorial broom is now known as mike_cee
<jan_rotterdam> tks mike
<mike_cee> While I've got people around, I wanted to quickly check that something I'm planning / hoping won't put people off side<mike_cee> What I'd like to try is to invite a few of my (personal) contacts who manage software projects to be observers for an afternoon or morning of the sprint.
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<mike_cee> This would be good PR for the process, but the flipside is that the process needs to be perceived as sufficiently corporate
<stub_> Sorry - looks like the string fell out of the can. Hope someone else is logging :-)
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<jan_rotterdam> I hope that doesn't meant suits and ties):)
<jan_rotterdam> the sprint last time was very professional looking - a hive of industry

== END LOG PART 1 ... BEGIN LOG PART 2 ==

[21:18] <jan_rotterdam> the sprint last time was very professional looking - a hive of industry
[21:19] <mike_cee> no, not suits and ties, but perhaps a modicum of self-evaluation of the process
[21:20] <mike_cee> i.e.  reflecting that certain "agile" (shudder) processes are designed to be adapted to suit local requirements [21:20] <jan_rotterdam> I think that was identified last time - that perhaps there should have been
[21:20] <jan_rotterdam> some updates from people as the sprint prgressed
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[21:24] <mike_cee> well we do have the experience of a local sprint to feed back into the next one
[21:24] <mike_cee> I think what I'm aiming at could be largely achieved by a briefing session which says something like "this is what we proposed last time, this is what worked, this is what didn't, this is what we're
going to do this time to adapt"
[21:25] <mike_cee> it would need to be formally "scheduled", and probably on the Friday afternoon for an hour
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[21:26] <jan_rotterdam> good point it could happen as soom as the tutorial is over
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[21:26] <mike_cee> that way I can (honestly) advertise a "public" event associated with the sprint.
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[21:26] <mike_cee> kevin just pointed out that we also have Richard's mini-conf
[21:26] <jan_rotterdam> hmm I was thinkiing that waas more like housekeeping and the the mini conference
[21:27] <jan_rotterdam> could be the public aspect of the sprint
[21:28] <mike_cee> I think I need to sit down with richard to get these two things working together
[21:29] <jan_rotterdam> yes it needs more discussion
[21:30] <mike_cee> yes
[21:30] <mike_cee> okay, let's get this showboat on the road (mixed metaphors)
[21:32] <jan_rotterdam> yes over to Jim
[21:32] <JimFulton> hm?
[21:33] <jan_rotterdam> Jim could you tell us how much zope 3 has been developed since our spirint in general terms
[21:34] <JimFulton> well, I'd say that most of the work has gone into restructuring/refactoring
[21:34] <JimFulton> we've had a number of major geddons:
[21:35] <JimFulton> - parentgeddon got rid of context wrappers. We now have __parent__ references. This is something we started talking about at the last sprint. This has the potential to make many sorts of
relationships easier to deal with.
[21:37] <JimFulton> - adaptergeddon provided a significant reimplementation of interfaces and adapters that sped things up and cleaned up certain aspects of adapters and views. Among other things,
this provides potential for cleaning up a number of presentation frameworks, many of which we worked on at the last sprint.
[21:38] <mike_cee> yay.  wapadapter here we come.  (sorry, side observation)
[21:38] <JimFulton> - A major simplification of services is underway. In particular, we are eliminating most services. We are finding that the core component types of utilities, anddapters and views are handling most cases.
[21:39] <JimFulton> - A proposal to simplify container creation is largely done, thanks in part to a bunch of work done at the Bangalore sprints.
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[21:39] <JimFulton> - Various other smaller things
[21:40] <JimFulton> Interestingly, this has minimal impact on the tutorial.
[21:40] <JimFulton> Everything people learned last year in the tutorial till applies.
[21:40] <JimFulton>
[21:40] <JimFulton> Oh yeah, as part of the parentgeddon work:
[21:41] <mike_cee> so does this mean that a subset of sprinters can get straight into sprinting?
[21:41] <JimFulton> - We made a lot of progress on clarifying object exceptions, especially location-relevent events.  There's still some work to do wrt operations on containers
[21:41] <JimFulton> yes
[21:42] <JimFulton> Also:
[21:42] <JimFulton> - We've made some progress on the z2->z3 transition:
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[21:43] <mike_cee> question from the peanut gallery:  Is there an ETA on Zope3  [I'M JUST THE MESSENGER]
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[21:43] <JimFulton>   o Zope 2.8 is well underway. This gets rid of the old ExtensionClass implementation.  Zope 2.8 and Zope 3 will share a common ZODB and interface package.
[21:44] <stub> Have the 'geddon's affected the tutorial significantly, or is the tutorial material largely unaffected?
[21:44] <JimFulton>   o We are beginning to get some vision of Zope 2.9, which will contain some substantial parts of Zope 8. (I *want* Zope 2.9 and Zope 3.0 to share a common security protection scheme, if possible.)
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[21:45] <JimFulton> mike_cee: the ETA is 1Q2004, but that depends a lot on contributions.
[21:45] <jjb> Evening!
[21:45] <JimFulton> stub: the tutorial has been unaffected by the geddons.
[21:45] <mike_cee> Has there been any systematic (automatic) attempt to examine the products on zope.org to see what products use the old implementation and could be targeted for migration? (e.g. simple as  email the authors?)
[21:45] <jjb> so does that mean some of the sprint work possilbly revolves around Zope 2 migration issues?
[21:46] <jjb> (Morning!)
[21:46] <JimFulton> jjb: that's up to you, but:
[21:47] <JimFulton> a lot of good work was started at the last sprint that I'd love to see continued.
[21:47] <jjb> OK.
[21:47] <JimFulton> mike_cee: that eta was for beta 1
[21:47] <jjb> It just seemed that more and more, the transitioning process from 2.X to 3 was as important as development of 3 to the succes of 3.
[21:48] <JimFulton> There's still a *lot* of work to do for beta 1. 1q2004 is pretty optimistic (I'm an optimistic guy :)
[21:48] <jjb> hehe
[21:48] <JimFulton> jjb, it's important, but it also slows z3 down.
[21:49] <JimFulton> For example, I'd say that work on 2.8 has taken about a month away from my z3 work.
[21:49] <jjb> true, but that may only be true for the shorter term, it could also speed up adoption, and hence development.
[21:49] <JimFulton> I think it was necessary to do this, asd other things need to build on it, but we really need to get to the X3 beta soon.
[21:49] <jjb> ie. there is the possibility of better longer term (6-12month+) gains.
[21:50] <jjb> which is still quite short term in the bigger scheme of things.
[21:50] <JimFulton> also, the move of Zope 3 from ZODB4 to ZODB3 is turning out to be a lot more work than I hoped, and will also be a significant distraction.
[21:52] <mike_cee> jjb - the migration of products is something that needs to be maintained between sprints too :-)  [I'm an optimist too]
[21:52] <JimFulton> anyway, to reiterate, people who attended the last sprint and fealt they were confortable with their understanding of the tutorial from last time, don't need to take it this time. They should review the material thogh.
[21:52] <mike_cee> or at least, understanding what needs to done and communicating that to the developers
[21:53] <JimFulton> If course, people are welcomed to do the tutorial again.
[21:53] <mike_cee> jim - those ppl who completed the Zope Corp paperwork are still covered, right?
[21:53] <JimFulton> I have added some new material, especially on testing and implementing containers.
[21:54] <JimFulton> mike_cee: yes, although, it would be good, at the print to print and sign the latest agreement, which has a minor change to remove a stupiid dependency on cvs,
[21:54] <JimFulton> We plan to move away from cvs at some point and the old agreement stupidly mentioned cvs.
[21:55] <mike_cee> Okay.  Action item on someone: Mail this detail to zzope list to let people who have signed know about the change, and thosewho haven't about the need to complete the paperwork.
[21:55] <JimFulton> On the tutorial, we should get copied of the pdf printed ahead of time as handouts. This is helpful to have for taking notes during the tutorial and for refernce to when sprinting.
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[21:56] <mike_cee> Action Item: Jim to mail tutorial PDF to XXX (to be defined).  XXX to arrange printing and binding of copies
[21:56] <JimFulton> copies
[21:56] <JimFulton> yup
[21:57] <mike_cee> We need an estimate of numbers, and someone to "sponsor" this if its a big print run.  actually, assume for now that there is a budget from coffee bean for printing
[21:57] <mike_cee> I will arrange printing, I just need to know how many copies.
[21:58] <waz___> 14 people on the tute list at present.
[21:59] <JimFulton> but there should be copies for all of the sprinters as well, for refernce.
[21:59] <mike_cee> waz - count me as an attendee, please?
[21:59] <jan_rotterdam> people should be able to print out their own version  perhaps
[22:00] <jan_rotterdam> but it would be handy to have copies on hand
[22:00] <mike_cee> jan - easier to do it in one place, and that way we're sure they're available where and when they need to be :-)
[22:00] <jan_rotterdam> true
[22:00] <mike_cee> besides, I have a staff member who needs to earn her keep.
[22:00] <JimFulton> I think it would be better to print them centrally.
[22:01] <mike_cee> she's not allowed to program until she's done all the admin tasks O:-)
[22:01] <jan_rotterdam> well thats decided then :)
[22:01] <JimFulton> Also, I would estimate 34 pages, assuming that the slides are printed 4-per-page. Acroread allows this.
[22:01] mike_cee:  *jimfulton* could you mail the PDF to mxc+zope@coffee.net.au
[22:01] <JimFulton> I think
[22:02] <mike_cee> jim - what's the source format for the slides?  I have some tools that I use to reformat into lecture/tutorial friendly form...
[22:02] <JimFulton> OpenOffice
[22:02] <mike_cee> (I do a lot of teaching...)
[22:02] <JimFulton> One issue is that my current open office presentation file is messed up. I need to rebuild it.
[22:03] <JimFulton> so, I would like to spend a day next week reworking the slides.
[22:03] <mike_cee> no problemos.  mail it through when done.
[22:03] <mike_cee> if I've got time, I'll work with the tools, if not I'll just print it happy :-)
[22:04] <jan_rotterdam> jim are there any directions you would like the Melbourne sprint to take?
[22:05] <JimFulton> I really liked what happened last time.  I;d like to see some of that work continued.
[22:05] <JimFulton> I'm open to other tasks too.
[22:06] <JimFulton> It partly depends on what elese happens between now and then, although there isn't much time left.
[22:07] <jan_rotterdam> does anyone have any questions for Jim?
[22:08] <JimFulton> Next week, I'll do some work on the sprint topics page in preparation.
[22:08] <jan_rotterdam> Jim the tutorial will run three days - are they 10- 5pm type days - or longer
[22:09] <JimFulton> That's proably about right.
[22:09] <JimFulton> There's more material than last time.
[22:09] <JimFulton> In bangalore, these were 2.5 10-7pm days.  Y'all may go a bit faster though.
[22:10] <JimFulton> or not
[22:10] <jan_rotterdam> true :)
[22:10] <JimFulton> so, 3 10-5 days is probably good to plan for
[22:11] <jan_rotterdam> ok
[22:12] <JimFulton> If the sprinters are around Friday afternoon or evening, it would be great to have an hour or so for sprint planning, so that we can start working first thing on Saturday.
[22:13] <jan_rotterdam> Jim here's a list of the participants so far
[22:13] <jan_rotterdam> http://www.ozzope.org/2ndsprint/SprintParticipants
[22:13] <JimFulton> If people who attended the tutorial last year want to sprint during this year's tutorial, that would be fine too.
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[22:13] <jan_rotterdam> possibly not everyone has put their name on the list
[22:13] <JimFulton> brb
[22:14] <jan_rotterdam> I guess that depends on how much time people have
[22:14] <JimFulton> b
[22:14] <mike_cee> yup
[22:15] <JimFulton> (I need to take my son to the school in about 15 minutes.)
[22:15] <JimFulton> scool bus
[22:15] <Isileth> (darius)  I think we're winding things up at this end anyway
[22:15] <JimFulton> school bus
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[22:15] <jan_rotterdam> yes i think we have covered most things
[22:16] <darius> thanks for taking the time out to give us an overview, anyway - helps organise things at this end ;)
[22:16] <jan_rotterdam> yes thanks very much Jim we'll let you go
[22:16] <JimFulton> If anyone wants to work during the tutorial time, I have some intereesting refactoring/restructuring tasks. :)
[22:17] <JimFulton> I have 15 minutes
[22:17] <darius> Mike's logged all this, so I expect we'll get it up on the website in the next day or two
[22:17] <darius> (He's just gathering contact details from people atm ;)
[22:18] <jan_rotterdam> how many at the meeting kevin?
[22:18] <darius> the rest of the meeting was pretty good - um, about 10 or 12 or so
[22:18] <darius> Warren has minutes
[22:18] <darius> was a good meeting, actually - interesting stuff from Mike's students re: actually measuring the effectiveness of pairprogramming re: reusability
[22:19] <darius> actual honest-to-god metrics - most bizarre ;)
[22:20] <darius> hope you're enjoying yourself in Rotterdam anyway, Jan - we might have to pick your brain about Silva when you get back, we've started looking at it for internal management for some newer projects, potentially - just trialling/playing atm
[22:21] <jan_rotterdam> good to hear - i just let the office know
[22:21] <jan_rotterdam> they would like to come to australia :)
[22:21] <darius> heh
[22:22] <darius> maybe we should do an exchange program ;)
[22:22] <jan_rotterdam> in deed - it might be possible
[22:22] <jan_rotterdam> one day
[22:22] <jan_rotterdam> i guess we should wrap up]
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[22:22] <darius> I think so
[22:23] <jan_rotterdam> thanks everyone I think its going to be a great sprint
[22:23] <darius> will catch you all later :)
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[22:23] <jan_rotterdam> bye
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[22:25] <mike_cee> any parting comments before I close the log?

==END ==